New Dev Doc: Salubri

The Gentleman Gamer

5/24/2011 5:51:12 PM #

I am very pleased with this write-up of the bloodline. The stereotypes from without are good fun, and the increased ambiguity of there only being seven is a prudent choice I think.

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Mister

5/24/2011 11:45:44 PM #

Really? It actually seems less ambiguous here than in the past, at least to me. I think a little more support for the viability of player character Salubri (and not just a rare, wandering NPC) would go a long way here. I don't want to undermine the horror of the 'Tremere killed Saulot' thing, but in my experience, at least with my own players in my own games, people really, really, REALLY want to be able to play Salubri.

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Mister

5/25/2011 3:16:48 PM #

Also, does it need to be treated as fact that Salubri diablerize their sires? It's written at the end of the main text block as if it's fact, under 'Sect' and again under Character Creation where they're arbitrarily required to take Generation at 5. Just replacing a couple of instances of the word 'all' with the word 'most' would go a long way toward making the bloodline seem more playable.

A lot of great development of the clan's concept was done for Dark Ages, and it would be a real shame to let that go to waste when we have an opportunity to include some of it here.

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Mister

5/26/2011 9:13:45 AM #

Salubri are really cool. I just don't want to see them go on the shelf as another batch of background NPCs, when we have a chance to breathe a little more life into them this time around.

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Mister

6/1/2011 7:30:39 AM #

So, when can we expect to see the updated version? I'm pretty psyched.

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Anders Carlson

5/24/2011 5:55:15 PM #

It would be really nice with a "In nights past" box presenting them as they where in the Dark Ages, and even when they where a true clan (Giving them the option of selecting between the Obeah and Valeren Disciplines, while not entierly accurate, but the easiest way to do it) and the weakness of the Salubri Warrior caste.

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Russell

5/24/2011 6:00:14 PM #

Hm. I don't think we have space to give them a box about the Dark Ages, but the Warriors will get their own 300-word variant writeup, in addition to a full writeup on the Valeren Discipline.

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Anders Carlson

5/24/2011 6:34:53 PM #

Do you mean the now extinct (possible converted into antitribu) caste, or are you referring to the newly emerged Salubri antitribu? Either way, the only info lacking is the Salubri Warrior weakness, and it may be presented in a box in the Salubri presentation, a box in the Salubri antitribu presentation or as a part of a hole variant/bloodline. Just a matter of taste. Any of those options will do fine.

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Russell

5/25/2011 2:51:39 PM #

I was referring to the modern antitribu.

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Anders Carlson

5/25/2011 4:06:04 PM #

Salubri antitribu:
Weakness (Guide to the Sabbat, p. 73): Vitae taken outside the heat of passion offers no sustenance to the Salubri antitribu, nor does blood given freely. Unless the Fury takes blood by force, drinks in the throes of undead passion of slakes her thirst on a fallen foe, any blood points she consumes do not replentish her blood pool. [...]

Salubri warrior:
Weakness (Dark Ages Storyteller's Companion, p. 19): A warrior Salubri cannot refuse to aid someone in need without paying a stiff price. If she does refuse, reduce all dice pools by two to reflect how badly the character has been shaken by the experience. This penalty ends when she has made some sort of restitution. [...] Any use of Valeren above level 2 causes the third eye to open; to keep the open eye covered is very uncomfortable and causes a one die penalty to all rolls. Many of Valeren's powers also causes light to emanate from the eye, making it extremely difficult to conceal.

These are two very different weaknesses. The Salubri warrior weakness should be included somewhere.

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Pork Sword

5/24/2011 7:11:45 PM #

When you say Valeren will get a write up, will it include levels 1 through 8 like in the old Dark Ages companion, or be limited to levels 1 through 6 as presented in Guide to the Sabbat?

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Russell

5/25/2011 2:52:25 PM #

It'll be the version from Guide to the Sabbat.

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Mister

5/25/2011 3:02:15 PM #

I really think the two-sided Valeren from Dark Ages was cooler. I never understood why the discipline fell apart just because there were fewer people practicing it. Especially for the Sabbat, there's no excuse for Adonai to be teaching his childer 'euthanize a willing mortal' instead of 'Armor of Caine's Fury,' since as a survivor of the Dark Ages he'd certainly have the latter instead.

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Neall

5/25/2011 4:10:08 PM #

Oh, God, Ending the Watch. Pay 15xp to do something you could already do, except it costs you a Willpower and doesn't earn you any blood points.

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Holden Shearer

5/25/2011 4:19:50 PM #

Russel, if that Kevorkian power that lets you painlessly kill someone who wants to die (hello, what are your fangs for) is still in there, I will personally mail you $20 to replace it with anything else. A power that lets you guess someone's name with 90% accuracy. Or shoot confetti out of your genitals. _Anything._

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Neall

5/25/2011 4:49:15 PM #

wiki.white-wolf.com/.../index.php?title=Valeren
wiki.white-wolf.com/.../index.php?title=Obeah

Comparing the two, the Warrior variant rather than the antitribu variant is the same, save for Ending the Watch being replaced by Armor of Caine's Fury, which synergizes incredibly well with the Salubri Discipline of Fortitude. The mechanics for the first two powers of Path of the Warrior and Path of the Healer are the same as that and Obeah; by folding them back into Valeren and merely noting the differences (or including the bonus for knowing both Paths), you've saved at least a hundred words. The Vampire: the Dark Ages clanbook  also featured a number of higher-level Discipline powers that were vastly improved over the Storytelling ones.

The penalty for purchasing powers not of your Path could also be improved; perhaps the cost for the powers of the other Path is (current rating) x6 rather than x5, rather than (current rating +1) x5. But that's a suggestion.

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Bruno

5/25/2011 5:29:48 PM #

To complement to the best Valeren/Obeah possible to the V20 edition: Tracker's Mark, from Clanbook Salubri would make an awesome first-level warrior power, and Blessing of the Name an interesting level 6. And the idea of alternative powers for the 1-5 levels is already present on the dual warrior/healer discipline. The only reason not to present the extra powers from the Clanbook would be space (which, sadly,  is a reason to leave them out).  

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Neall

5/25/2011 5:47:28 PM #

V20 should represent the whole of Vampire: the Masquerade, but that absolutely should not mean representing some of the more egregious mechanical errors. The Dark Ages Valeren variant is both better-thought-out and more mechanically elegant than the Obeah/Valeren split, and it doesn't raise the question of why the Salubri antitribu have an entirely different Discipline despite being antitribu rather then a separate bloodline.

Not only that, but because the mechanics are the same, including their signature Discipline as two Paths rather than two entirely different Disciplines requires the addition of a few lines about how the antitribu almost universally go Warrior due to Adonai's influence and the Blooding, but makes up for that by saving wordcount on duplicate powers.

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Mister

5/25/2011 7:24:05 PM #

Couldn't agree more. Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Ian

5/24/2011 6:00:40 PM #

Given that the book will contain both the Salubri and the Salubri antitribu, I don't think a separate sidebar is really all that necessary. All the basic information is there if people want it.

Besides, the Dark Ages era is kind of outside the scope of V20.

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Neall

5/24/2011 6:15:19 PM #

The Dark Ages variant of Obeah did the Valeran concept and did it far better than Obeah, though. It might be worth basing the Discipline on that rather than the Obeah version in the ST Guide.

I've always been very, very concerned that the Salubri weakness is very crippling; frankly, I don't think I've ever seen it handled well, in any incarnation (Dark Ages, Storyteller's Guide, or Guide to the Sabbat).

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MGW

5/24/2011 6:21:49 PM #

Honestly, I've always thought of them as being best used as NPCs and as such their weakness has (mostly) been purely a storytelling tool for me.  Even though I say below that I know a player or two are going to ask about these, they're going to have to sell me on it to make it happen.  I've always preferred Salubri as object lessons and McGuffins more than anything else.

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Neall

5/24/2011 6:25:10 PM #

That's no excuse to make them less than playable; one wonders why their original Discipline spread wasn't Auspex, Presence, Obeah if they can't feed on unwilling vessels!

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MGW

5/24/2011 7:06:58 PM #

See, from my perspective I don't see the weakness as any worse than that of the Nosferatu or the Malkavians or the Ventrue (depending on how specific a Ventrue weakness gets).  Salubri are one of the only clans that have a chance at something like redemption and even then their one option for that is one of the least attainable states for any Kindred to attain.  I think it's /supposed/ to be hard for them and I think that's a powerful part of their story.  I also think Presence would make it "too easy" for them.

That's from my Salubri-make-great-props perspective, though.  If someone wanted to build a character that would be a long-term character participating in chronicle activities unrelated to their own personal enlightenment then, yes, that one's going to be pretty harsh and Presence might make more sense.  I would probably tell them to buy it out-of-clan but I could absolutely see an ST making the choice to change their in-clan disciplines for her game.

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Neall

5/24/2011 7:25:06 PM #

I was more lamenting the original (and Revised, I suppose) design of the Salubri.

To be honest, having the third eye is Flaw enough, if you want to dissociate it from the Valeran/Obeah power. They changed the Tremere weakness, why not the Salubri one as well?

"The Salubri bloodline is a mystical one; the progenitor Saulot's adventures in the East resulted in his return with a third eye, a physical oddity that rapidly spread to his clan. All Salubri develop the third eye upon their Embrace, which looks like a horizontal scar on the forehead when closed. Any usage of Auspex or Valeran causes the third eye to open; to keep the eye covered is painful and limiting, imposing a one die penalty to all rolls."

There we are - potential Masquerade breach and being easily identifiable as a Salubri, or a one-die penalty. Plus, we keep the clan's signature feature!

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Mister

5/24/2011 11:47:13 PM #

I might say 'any active use,' but otherwise I like this idea.

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MGW

5/25/2011 2:04:29 AM #

I like it, but not as much as the unwilling victims flaw.    It just feels more right and more thematic to me.

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MGW

5/24/2011 6:19:09 PM #

Easily one of my favorites so far.  The stereotypes are primo and the write-up presents lots of options for players and Storytellers to cast the Salubri in any light desirable:  tragically misunderstood, victimized or menacing.  It makes me want to plant an incredibly powerful elder Salubri somewhere in my future chronicle so that I can see the looks of horror on my players' faces when the NPC is revealed and they try to heal the PC of something or another.  

One thing I would like is a little more explicit discussion of the /actual/ status of the line and how it works.  Does any one of them ever make more than one childe?  Are there really only seven of them?  Are they all of a single generation or ranging from 4th to 8th?  If one of them turns out to be a bad seed, do the others deal with them?  It would be nice to know just a little more in the way of fact, as I can already think of a player or two who will express interest in them and want to know more specifics from me.  On the other hand, this may be being left explicitly up to the ST given the incredible rarity of these characters.  

I think the Discipline powers are a great mix of utility it might be nice to have available in a chronicle and abilities it would be easy to misunderstand, misrepresent or abuse.  I particularly like the 9th level power.  I know my own proclivities as an ST well enough to know I'm going to wind up using that whole "rematerialize after a year and a day" thing to create some creepy location where a "ghost" gets re-murdered every ~year.

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Holden Shearer

5/24/2011 6:20:28 PM #

This has problems.

Obeah has always been a very, very, very, very weak Discipline, and it's still weak here.

For example: What does Obean 1 do that can't be accomplished with an ordinary, no-magic Medicine roll? As far as I can tell its only real utility is letting you skip out on buying Medicine (which is something many Obeah character concepts are going to want to buy anyway). Could this be strengthened into a passive power that automatically singles out individuals with serious health complications in the eyes of the Salubri, and then lets them make a roll for a more precise diagnosis? This might help Salubri find mortals in need of their assistance, or terminally ill vessels whose pain they might ease in the course of sating their hunger.

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Russell

5/24/2011 7:59:43 PM #

The thing is, the Salubri can do these things instantly with Sense Vitality. That's the advantage over Medicine.

However, the whole original Discipline seems built around swapping out Medicine for Empathy, so maybe that should be one of the benefits of Sense Vitality.

I do agree that it's generally a weak Discipline, though. I'm not sure how much buffing it can take without rebuilding the Discipline. This deserves further consideration.

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Holden Shearer

5/24/2011 8:45:51 PM #

The instantaneous nature of the diagnosis is I guess technically superior to asking a mortal to turn his head and cough for you, but it's just... it's not sexy, and it doesn't really feel useful. Compare to the first dot of other Disciplines-- Auspex gives you super-senses, Protean lets you have night-vision and wicked glowing eyes, this lets you make an instant Medicine roll with a different Ability. It's just not something I can see people wanting to buy-- they'll grudgingly trudge through it to get to the cool stuff higher up in the Discipline.

Adding in a passive function kind of like Deathsight from Wraith[1] that highlights people with serious health problems as soon as the Salubri sees them would take about one, maybe two extra sentences, allow the power to have a meaningful impact on your character, and significantly aid him in pursuing the kind of unlifestyle the (pretty kickass) bloodline writeup says they have. Kind of like Deathsight in old Wraith.

[1]Which reminds me, I really hope the Nagaraja signature bag of tricks--whether it's the Vitreous Path again or got flipped back to Nihilistics-- isn't based on its Revised incarnation. Because good lord did the Vitreous Path suck out loud. Second dot was okay but largely obsoleted the first, third dot was incredibly useless, fourth dot summoned a swarm of uncontrollable monsters to probably kill you... eugh.

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Chris Gunter

5/25/2011 5:45:16 AM #

Not to be argumentative, but Obeah isn't supposed to be "sexy".

It's about wholeness of body and spirit. Tranquility of one.

I for one am perfectly happy about the first level being subtle and perceptive.

Although, I can see a stipulation that upon reaching third level one may use the first level at a short distance through the third eye's sight, as opposed to requiring touch.

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Holden Shearer

5/25/2011 9:15:31 AM #

It doesn't really make me feel like an enlightened bodhisattva, either. It's just an instant Medicine diagnostics roll-- but if you don't already have Medicine, it's not like you can do anything about their illness anyway.

"But wait," you say, "if you've got some more Obeah you can do lay-on-hands style healing!"

Indeed, I reply: But that lets you heal them without the need of a detailed diagnosis so why bother with the first dot unless it's unclear that they're hurt to begin with? And if it's unclear, why did you use the power? Do you just go around touching people randomly to check for injury or sickness?

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Chris Gunter

5/25/2011 1:58:18 PM #

Your right about the healing argument. Knowing how many levels of damage someone has (or even of what type) is completely unneeded for the third level healing ability.

But the first level is still very useful for sizing up potential opponents and/or allies. Being able to identify someone as a ghoul or a vampire is an incredibly useful ability. Knowing how much blood a kindred has gives hints as to his potential strength. Knowing the blood levels of a mortal helps to prevent injuries due to blood loss. Knowing if a person has blood born illnesses helps to prevent that disease's spread (as kndred can spread such diseases after feeding on an infected subject).

The first level ability can also be very useful as an investigative tool. If a subject is unable to communicate, for whatever reasons, Sense Vitality can provide clues as to how the subjects came to be in his injured state.

And those uses are just off the top of my head.

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Neall

5/25/2011 2:41:18 PM #

I'm still going to advocate that Obeah/Valeran get a full rewrite based on the Dark Ages rules; hell, Matt developed the book they appeared in. It'll save mechanical headaches and wordcount. There's even room for improvement, if you add in a bit more cross-compatibility between knowing the two Paths of the Discipline.

It's the most recent and functional version of what's always been a troublesome Discipline. I can't imagine a reason not to use that as your starting point and build off the higher-level Disciplines from there, especially considering Valeran also had *extremely significant* mechanical problems - I'm referring to End the Watch, which allows you to kill someone who already wants to die.

Really? Really? A vampire - with fangs! - has a third-level Discipline power that allows you to peacefully kill someone who wants to die? Why don't you just bite them and drain their blood?

Also, Morphean Blow FTW.

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Mister

5/25/2011 3:04:28 PM #

I basically said this myself in an above post before I scrolled down and saw this one. Ending the Watch is just awful, especially since the founder of the bloodline, Adonai, had Armor of Caine's Fury instead.

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Neall

5/25/2011 4:59:41 PM #

It is a sad take on the Discipline when the response to, "Hey, what's your guys take on it?" amounts to, "For the love of Heaven, use the version in Dark Ages, it's much better than both the other versions."

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Russell

5/25/2011 6:57:50 PM #

"but if you don't already have Medicine, it's not like you can do anything about their illness anyway."

So how about if Obeah allows you to substitute Empathy for Medicine?

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Holden Shearer

5/26/2011 6:42:48 AM #

Might help a bit, but again, two dots up you can just do lay-on-hands healing anyway.

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Neall

5/26/2011 2:20:40 PM #

The big advantage to it, I think, is that you can tell exactly how many health levels someone has left - since Medicine wouldn't apply to vampires, really - and you can tell how much blood they have left, which also isn't obvious until they're deep in hunger. However, it sort of duplicates Auspex 2, so...

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Neall

5/24/2011 8:50:31 PM #

I'm curious as to why Matt (and by extension the dev team) chose to go with the older, clunkier Storyteller's Companion version of Obeah rather than the version Dark Ages Storyteller's Companion, which featured the fully-developed Healer/Warrior Valeran Paths and essentially is (Obeah) + (Valeran from the Guide to the Sabbat) with cross-functionality (several Disciplines work better if you know both versions) and cleaner, more elegant mechanics. I recognize that the Dark Ages are a separate line and aren't necessarily under the auspices of the celebration inherent in the 20th Anniversary, but there's already references to the Dark Ages line and bloodlines, and frankly, it was just a more gameplay-friendly and polished iteration of the Disciplines.

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Russell

5/25/2011 6:55:07 PM #

Which specific changes from the DA versions would you like to see?

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Neall

5/25/2011 7:06:32 PM #

The Dark Ages variant of Obeah (Healer) shuffled up the Disciplines by adding a new 4th Dot called Shepherd's Watch, which granted a defensive barrier. This is both thematic, cool and useful! The Dark Ages variant of Warrior's Valeren replaced Ending the Watch - which myself and others have said is pretty ridiculous - with Armor of Caine's Fury, something that synergized very well with the Salubri tendency of Fortitude and was appropriate for a defensively-based warrior clan like the Salubri. Both were excellent changes.

As-written, you've got the first few levels of Valeren/Obeah essentially being the same power, yes? The Dark Ages: Vampire variant granted you bonus dice if you knew both versions of the Discipline, and I believe that should be included here. Purchasing both was expensive, but not as expensive as an out-of-clan Discipline, since it was really two separate bloodlines.

I still think that combining them into two Paths of the same Discipline is going to save you a teensy bit of wordcount at the end of the day, which means more goodness elsewhere. I'm actually okay with them being two legitimately different Disciplines and bloodlines in the modern era, but if they share the exact same mechanics (including the third eyeball) they should get the benefits. Others have noted that the first level is still rather weak; making it line-of-sight with the purchase of the second level of the Discipline buffs it appropriately, I think, and emphasizes the importance of growing the eye.

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Bruno

5/25/2011 7:16:43 PM #

Russel, it might help: Dark Ages Valeren is on Dark Ages: Vampire Storytellers Companion, p.46.

Also, the fifth and sixth powers from Dark Ages, The Ailing Spirit and Warding the Beast (which are the equivalent of Masquerade Revised Obeah level 4 Mensa Sana and level 5 Unburdening the Bestial Soul) could be combined into one single level 5 power with different applications, both curing derangements and restoring Humanity/Path rating (keep the same mechanic, they make sense). Thematically the do seem close enough, and Salubri of higher generation would be able to learn the signature power of the bloodline – and the level 4 would still be open for the absolutely cool power of Shepherd’s Watch.

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Russell

5/25/2011 8:43:04 PM #

Thematically, combining the two spiritual healing powers makes some sense, but mechanically, they do very different things, as well as different costs. Obeah is already a collection of mixed powers, though, so I have mixed feelings about combining two of them.

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Bruno

5/25/2011 9:03:06 PM #

"Thematically, combining the two spiritual healing powers makes some sense, but mechanically, they do very different things, as well as different costs."

Not at all: Dark Ages Path of the Healer Valeren description for The Ailing Spirit already mentions that using the power for curing derangements is one of the actions to be taken once a soul is collected (see p.47).

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Russell

5/25/2011 8:38:32 PM #

I think they'll continue to be presented as two Disciplines, though one may reference the other. The word count difference isn't significant, and it would make explaining that only one is in-clan for any given Salubri awkward.

I agree that Shepherd's Watch is a cool power, but I'm not sure it's worth bumping every other power up a dot, and cutting one of them.

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Neall

5/25/2011 9:26:33 PM #

"I think they'll continue to be presented as two Disciplines, though one may reference the other. The word count difference isn't significant, and it would make explaining that only one is in-clan for any given Salubri awkward."

Well, they're both in-clan; it's just that you chose one of them. However, if you're representing the antitribu as a completely separate bloodline, or a bloodline that is activated (to borrow some Requiem terminology) early in an undead's existence by their Salubri sire, I'm totally fine with looking at it that way.

You could say that in the Dark Ages it was possible to learn both, but developments in the blood have caused them to fully separate into two bloodlines with similar-but-different Disciplines. Alternately, you could say that ancient Salubri had an affinity for four Clan Disciplines, since Caine did not curse Saulot as greatly as the other clans (c.f. Erciyes Fragments). Since the breaking of the clan, however, the main clan (descended from Healers) have lost affinity for Valeren, while the antitribu (descended from Warriors) have lost affinity for Obeah, and include that in the antitribu sidebar. "Salubri can still learn Valeren without training, and Salubri antitribu can still learn Obeah without training, but they don't pay in-clan costs anymore like they used to."

If Obeah and Valeren have the same mechanics for the first two dots, I believe that adding bonus dice for knowing both versions would be appropriate!

"I agree that Shepherd's Watch is a cool power, but I'm not sure it's worth bumping every other power up a dot, and cutting one of them."

To be fair to that topic, the eighth dot of Obeah is "purify the area of demon taint, which is never really defined anywhere and demons aren't the primary enemies of the undead anyways and really it's sort of the same as the fifth dot", while the final dot of Obeah is basically "this lower-level Auspex power, but permanent, and you can only use it in Golconda!"  I don't think either are really appropriate for elder-level Disciplines.

Perhaps you could bump Purification and add a ticker onto Unburden the Flesh-Clad Soul that says diablerie on the unburdened vampire's form confers the full benefits? This would go a long way to making sense of the main clan's tendency to pursue Golconda, then Embrace and allow themselves to be diablerized - this way, they're not consumed, and since Golconda allows them to achieve the 9th level regardless of Generation, it actually makes sense. Better living through Golconda!

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Neall

5/25/2011 9:40:46 PM #

To expand on the Purification-being-lame argument, looking at other Disciplines at the 8th level? Potence gets you Flick, which is, "Make a single gesture and get to hit with full Potence at range." Serpentis gets you Heart Thief, which is "Yank anybody's heart. Yoink!" Obfuscate gets you Old Friend, which is "Instantly trusted by the guy seeing your Obfuscated form." Obeah gets you, "Maybe have a chance purify an area of demonic taint - again, not really defined anywhere - or have a chance at purifying somebody of demons."

On the other hand, Obeah 7 is "heal anybody of all damage, instantly, with Willpower." While this does invalidate the third level somewhat, it's not an issue in a game where you've got a Generational cap on most, and the third level is still useful if you're out of Willpower but not blood.

Cutting Purification entirely, adding Shepherd's Watch to level 4, modifying Unburdening the Bestial Soul (and moving it to level 6) and tacking on a rider that says you can cleanse the soul of demonic taint, whatever that is? This doesn't make you lose anything worth it, keeps the flavor of the Salubri as healers, and adds some combative utility to Obeah.

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Neall

5/25/2011 9:52:53 PM #

Sorry, Renewed Vigor is Obeah 6, not Obeah 7. Obeah 7 is, "Be protected in a crowd with a good roll, and also get low-grade assistance, kinda, except for good stuff."

The point stands, though Safe Passage could really stand to be beefed up a little by removing the prohibition against harmless or innocent assistance.

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Russell

5/26/2011 1:57:21 PM #

Having slept on it, I think I'll bring in Shepherd's Watch and combine Purification with Unburdening the Bestial Soul. Thanks!

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Neall

5/26/2011 2:55:36 PM #

No, thank you! You're a prince among Kindred, Russell.

I'm still going to advocate adding the survive-diablerie rider I suggested earlier onto Unburdening the Flesh-Clad soul, since that makes the Salubri clan culture actually have some sense to it.

Additionally, I'll keep advocating some cross-capability bonuses between the two bloodlines and replacing Valeren's Ending the Watch with Armor of Caine's Fury. Ending the Watch is both unthematic and a useless power (and AoCF is thematic, flashy and useful - baleful glowing red eye, mystical armor that stacks with mundane and Fortitude? Yes please - those Camarilla vampires would crap themselves if they still had bowels).

The Salubri and their antitribu are some of my favorites,  and I know they've got plenty of fans out there. I do apologize for being so hardline in my opinions regarding their Discipline, and thanks for being so willing to work on solutions for their oft-problematic Disciplines and themes.

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Neall

5/26/2011 3:22:03 PM #

As a final note, the Dark Ages variant of Obeah (Warding the Beast) could be used against an unwilling target. The Difficulty to pull out their soul was 10 - the subject's Road or Path rating, not 12, which made it a tad easier (and avoided both the terrible Difficulty 10 probability curve and the fact that you can't repair a Humanity 1 vampire's soul at Difficulty 11). At the very least, the difficulties should be modified.

Warding the Beast also said:
"Souls that wish to escape the embrace of Warding the Beast must engage in a resisted Willpower roll with the player (difficulty is the trapped soul's Wits + Empathy). If the soul earns more successes than the Salubri, it returns to the body."

I know you might be a little wary of adding too much to the soul-sucking power, but it is their signature move, so to speak. A Salubri ripping out a target's soul to heal whether they like it or not it is very, very frightening, which befits a clan of "healer vampires". They should be frightening. Someone tears out your soul and suddenly you've got guilt you haven't felt in a hundred years?

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Holden Shearer

5/24/2011 6:24:18 PM #

Also, it's a hell of a lot to leave in the hands of the Storyteller whether or not force-feeding automatically provokes a degeneration roll--it's a very nasty flaw without automatic degeneration rolls, and absolutely brutal with them. Also, I think automatic degeneration sends kind of the wrong message. It says the Salubri's humanity is actually -more fragile- than that of other vampires, shredded easily by the basic rigors of Kindred existence, which implies they've got a super-strong Beast, which doesn't seem to be what the writeup is otherwise going for.

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Neall

5/24/2011 6:34:30 PM #

Agreed; the point of Willpower loss is serious enough, having to check for degeneration is completely crippling.

While we're on the topic, though, the Salubri antitribu Flaw in Guide to the Sabbat is also extremely harsh; they're only able to take blood by force or in frenzy, and that's just about as crippling. Both of those will absolutely provoke degeneration checks in a manner more rapid than Vampire deals with.

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Russell

5/24/2011 8:01:48 PM #

I'm going to take out the degeneration reference. If your ST is going to make you roll for degeneration because of your Humanity or Path, then they already know they're going to do it. No point in us belaboring the point.

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Holden Shearer

5/24/2011 8:29:41 PM #

Thanks

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Neall

5/24/2011 8:59:19 PM #

Yay!

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Chris Gunter

5/25/2011 5:38:30 AM #

Good choice.

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Gehennaheretic

5/24/2011 6:41:48 PM #

Is the 'only 7' thing really necessary? And if there are only 7, then aren't those 7 the antitribu and the Sabbat warriors the real Salubri?

7 individuals doesn't make a clan, bloodline, or anything else, it makes one game's plotline and aren't worthy of treatment in a core book.  If the 'only 7' thing is a rumor, but there are really a small but reclusive number of them, then that makes more sense.  I know it was part of the original, but it reflects the 'Vanishingly rare, STs, ban this' mindset that is supposed to be left behind.  

Obeah lv 1 is bascially a high-difficulty Medicine roll for the cost of a discipline slot.  How about 'Sense the presence of nearby living or unliving beings' or let it also diagnose derangements and the effects of mind-altering powers as well as physical ailments. or something useful.  If you can tell at a glance or a touch that a person has Schizophrenia and is blood bound and acting under the effects of being Dominated, then you have a useful lv 1 power. As it is, lv 1 is too weak, plus lv1 tends to be a 'sense' power anyway.  

When you get to Valeren, please fix it, too. Lv 4 is basically the same as having a pillow, but having to ask permission to smother the person with it.  Lame.

Oh, lv 5 says it can only be used on a willing target, but it also talks about unwillingly captured souls fighting free. Please clarify or fix that. it's inconsistent as read right now.

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Russell

5/24/2011 7:38:03 PM #

"Oh, lv 5 says it can only be used on a willing target, but it also talks about unwillingly captured souls fighting free. Please clarify or fix that. it's inconsistent as read right now."

I believe the idea was that a soul can be willingly removed, but can become unwilling later. However, that's a vanishingly unlikely event... is it worth even a line?

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Demon Cat

5/24/2011 11:12:08 PM #

Given our unlikely that this, probably not worth mentioning, especially since leaving it in will probably cause confusions for some readers about whether that power can be used on an unwilling target after all.

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Russell

5/25/2011 8:57:14 PM #

After some consideration, I'm toning down "only seven."

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Mister

5/26/2011 1:11:20 AM #

Good call. That, and the assumption that they're all 8th generation and all diablerists, was really kind of hard to swallow anyway. I think it's important to treat even the rarest and most bizarre bloodlines with the assumption that someone's going to play them, not merely gaze upon them as beautiful scenery.

Complaints about Sabbat Valeren are related, but kind of tangential.

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Mister

5/26/2011 6:09:21 PM #

I dug out my MET books, and the Salubri description in Laws of the Night gives them, as their 'clan advantage,' two free traits to put toward the Generation background, with the only requirement being that they can't spend those traits on anything else. Now, I'm certainly not suggesting we implement MET-style 'clan advantages' in the tabletop book, but it does suggest a good line for the character creation paragraph. Something along the lines of, 'Almost all Salubri will have at least two dots in the Generation background, as the survivors have not allowed their blood to stray very far since the clan's fall.' Something like that, maybe. Leave it a little more open-ended, character creation-wise. Hm?

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Anders Carlson

5/24/2011 7:05:19 PM #

Here with the Salubri I just feel that I must include something:
The standing joke of the "death combo" Disciplines - Auspex and Fortitude.
Apparently all clans that has those two as Clan Disciplines are doomed.
* Salubri (Auspex, Fortitude, Obeah/Valeren) - replaced by the Tremere.
* Cappadocian (Auspex, Fortitude, Mortis/Necromancy) - replaced by the Giovanni.

Once would think that someone who can sense danger and take lots of damage would survive quite well, but apparently not.

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Tetsuo41

5/24/2011 7:12:21 PM #

Jyhad irony.

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Grzegorz

5/24/2011 7:42:16 PM #

Poor Ventrue Antitribu, i really liked them :<

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Demon Cat

5/25/2011 12:10:14 AM #

The Ravnos, who can get Fortitude or Auspex depending on their jati/bloodline, are another example

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Anders Carlson

5/25/2011 9:29:43 AM #

And what happens with that clan just before Gehenna?

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Elvis "Poseur" Jansson

5/25/2011 12:32:44 AM #

It always seemed hilarious that two clans with both Auspex and Fortitude got more or less extinct.
But I'm fully confident that both antediluvians foresaw and planed for the events and it is just a grand plot in the eternal Jyhad.

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Tetsuo41

5/24/2011 7:11:56 PM #

This is a fantastic spread. Just the right amount of history, thematic exploration, and background info to allow anyone who reads this to be able to understand the fundamentals and play the clan.

I will be honest, until this point I have never liked the Salubri and kind of just removed them from my world of darkness. Reading this spread COMPLETELY changes my mind. Solid (and mind altering) work Russell!

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Russell

5/24/2011 7:38:48 PM #

Glad you're enjoying it. I'll pass the praise along.

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richt

5/24/2011 8:10:28 PM #

Passes the Chupp test- awesome!

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Francsico

5/24/2011 8:17:07 PM #

The whole only 7 thing should be put vague enough for it to be considered propaganda or a myth.

Maybe a write up can be made that due to the new Salubri "anti tribu" recently more than seven Salubri have been popping out around the world. A new problem for the Tremere?  

I personally liked the Obhea/Valeren choice.

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Shane

5/24/2011 9:24:41 PM #

I agree that the 7 thing should be positioned as little more than Tremere propaganda.  


"They eat their sires, truck with demons, and only 7 can walk the world at any one time due to their past sins and transgressions of the most foul nature."  That makes the whole 7 thing less ridiculous.  It was a terrible concept to be taken as literal.

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Craig Oxbrow

5/24/2011 9:42:06 PM #

The third eye is only mentioned in the Obeah section or in reference to Saulot himself. If it isn't being edited out, I'd include it in the Appearance paragraph.

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Russell

5/25/2011 6:50:52 PM #

Done.

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Bruno

5/24/2011 10:22:29 PM #

"Their clan founder, Saulot, was said to be a superlative warrior as well as a fair-minded judge."

I have never read about Saulot as a warrior, even before his journey to the east. Maybe saying he was a philosopher or mystic would be more accurate, perhaps? (Clanbook: Salubri implied that). Was this supposed to be a nod to Samiel, the 4th Generation Salubri who created the warrior line? Or to the image of Saulot as a pretender to the Demon Emperor position?
Also, agreed that the “7-only” should not be treated as truth in the Character Creation and Background sections, and only as a rumor on the description. It would be interesting to imagine a re-population of healer Salubri inspired by the antitribu emergence. And why wouldn’t these guys get along well anyway?
And Dark Ages Valeren is indeed the best incarnation of the Discipline, with the division between the Path of the Healer and the Path of the Warrior.
Also, I miss Neutral Guard/Shepherd’s Watch, one of the coolest powers ever! Maybe it can become a level 6 power, so that V20 Obeah would be similar to Dark Ages Valeren, but with Unburdening the Bestial Soul as a level 5 power, and  Mens Sana as level 4.
Corpore Sano needs a note informing that a Salubri can use the power on herself.
And previous write-ups say on the Appearance section that all Salubri develop a third eye by the time they progress above the second level of Valeren/Obeah. I think this an important information.

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Elvis "Poseur" Jansson

5/25/2011 12:29:13 AM #

I also agree with much the others have said about that; the seven shouldn't be taken as literal. It makes the whole bloodline unable to be played in most groups even if you beg your storyteller and has the best character concept ever. Make it more of a rumor. Less is more.

Also the latest Dark Ages: Vampire lineup for the discipline is far better then the current V20 lineup.
For most parts the rules in Dark Ages: Vampire is far better then V:tM rev.Ed. I believe that as it is the latest rules for the oWoD:vampire series it should be used more in the V20 because those rules are better, much better. Also the language used in those books brings forth a far creepier and vague approach to vampirism. Dark Ages sets a better mood and feeling to the world. It would be nice to see a more mysterious tone and mood in the language overall.

But so forth I have enjoyed to read all docs and i like them overall.
I´m looking forward to the cappadocians, my favorite clan.

/Poseur  

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Neall

5/25/2011 2:33:39 AM #

I've got to wonder if they revert Mortis to a Discipline instead of a magic path! I'd love for the zombie Paths to crop up for Giovanni to have access to, finally.

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Elvis

5/25/2011 11:15:49 AM #

I would die if the fucked up Mortis to a discipline. It should and IS a discipline of blood magic full with paths and rituals.

And necromancy and Mortis are the same discipline , just altered a bit from the dark ages.
All in my humble opinion.

/Poseur

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Jacob Lloyd

5/25/2011 1:50:17 AM #

Loving the Salubri! In fact all the new clan write ups have been awesome, but they leave me wanting one thing: The new/updated disciplines. When do we get to see them.

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Bryan

5/25/2011 2:27:06 AM #

Great Job.

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Jason Kenney

5/25/2011 3:18:15 AM #

I concur, replacing Obeah with DA Valaren makes much more sense. Also "There are only 7 in the world..." meh, not only is that practically impossible... but it doesn't add much to the setting. I think it makes more sense writing them as if they are already gone.

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Molikai

5/25/2011 3:41:42 AM #

Thirding? Fouthing? Looks good, but:
No mention of how thew third eye develops (And is it tied to the bloodline or the discipline?)
DA version is superior. Can has, please.
and too many mentions of the 'only seven'. the first mention 'rumor' is fine: The others.. reinforce it.

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Chris Gunter

5/25/2011 5:50:23 AM #

Good point, Molikai!

There needs to be a mention of at what level the third eye develops!

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Chris Gunter

5/25/2011 5:29:04 AM #

All around great job!

For the first time in a while I really want to play a salubri!

I really hope that y'all decide to post a preview of the antitribu and Valeren. (And yes, I know that this is unlikely. But I hope that y'all make an exception for them.)

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Cogitare

5/25/2011 7:05:12 AM #

I like the spread as well. I really liked the change in flaw where it costs one WP to feed outside your restriction. Will we see the same thing with Ventrue for example?

I'm not so sure about the "must-status" of Generation 5 though. It plays too much into that "there are only seven of them" as the obvious and unquestionable truth!

I'll check out Valeren as well but do not have the time right now. As others have stated in the comments it is generally a very weak Discipline so it could use some buffing.

Cog.

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Anders Carlson

5/25/2011 9:46:21 AM #

Would be nice to simply have an encouragement of maximize Generation. That would allow for the possibility of creating a Salubri that has not diablerized her sire for one reason or another.

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Cogitare

5/25/2011 10:18:51 AM #

Yeah, the requirement really ties in too closely to the diableri of your sire and only 7 of the around theories.

Perhaps tie Obeah/Valeren to Generation in some fashion?

Cog.

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Original Anarch

5/25/2011 7:43:22 AM #

"Saulot left Europe"?

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Elvis

5/25/2011 11:19:29 AM #

Yeah wouldn't that be like "middle east" and "Far east" or similar?
Most would agree that the first and second cities where not in Europe.
Please don't be so euro-centric.

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Saulot

5/25/2011 5:48:13 PM #

Yes, that bugged me too.  

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karablak

5/25/2011 12:33:41 PM #

OK, a bit late to the party, so I'll just say what's already been said, but merits repeating.
*Just a single mention of the 'only 7' is enough, and it let it be just a rumor
*Love the new flaw
*Dark Ages interpretation of the Salubri discipline as Healer/Warrior path Valeren would be sweet. I know that this is supposed to be based on pre-Rev, but that change in DA was good.
*As Original Anarch noticed- "Saulot left Europe" ...What.

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Dave

5/25/2011 12:50:11 PM #

I have some problems with this, that I think a few people have already touched on.

I think the shift from the description of the Salubri from the past to the current perception is too jarring – there’s no real reason presented for that change in opinion. After the line ending “…downward spiral from which they never really recovered” – which could do without the “really” – there could be another couple of sentences along the lines of “The Tremere combined a willingness to provide services in the new courts they frequented, with a relentless propaganda campaign against the Salubri. Pragmatism outweighed any compassion, and most turned a blind eye as the Clan’s numbers dwindled.”

There is also no mention of the Salubri’s search for Golconda until the third paragraph. There’s no reason for others to question how the Salubri might reach Golconda – if they aren’t presented as searchers of such prior to this.

I think the “only seven” thing needs toned down somewhat. It’s fine for the majority of Kindred (that have heard of the Salubri) to know of the rumours of only seven who all commit diablerie on their sires, but to present that as an absolute in the character generation makes the Salubri pretty unplayable. If every Salubri’s long-term goal is to find Golconda, embrace a childe and get diablerised, it doesn’t make for a whole lot of variety. It’s clear from the variety of sourcebooks that there are NPC Salubri who don’t belong to the seven currently extant – why not a PC. Sure there are very few Salubri, but I would prefer to see something that states that Salubri tend to have high generation background (rather than all being 8th generation) – why should all the seven (if we’re sticking to that) be 8th generation. Isn’t it highly unlikely that 7 8th generation Salubri survived and all adopted the same embrace-diablerise-embrace unlife schedule? So maybe just open it up a bit and downplay the rules aspect of the only seven.

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Francsico

5/25/2011 1:22:02 PM #

I'm glad to see almost everybody agrees on the  DA Healer/Warrior path of Valeren and the only seven thing must or be rendered to a rumor or propaganda.  The first is just better and the second its just ridiculous.

To strengthen the later  position, when the Salubri were introduced back in the PH and in my playgroup it was only played once...when the DA Salubri came along every body played one (Even me).

I'm really loving this exercise

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karablak

5/25/2011 1:34:54 PM #

Actually I just realized another problem. The 8th level 'Purification' power doesn't make sense. I get to purify a place/object/being from a corrupt presence for no other reason than to thrust it into another? What's the point at all? I'm not really fixing anything, just dumping the problem on someone/something/someplace else. This power should make it possible to:
*Permanently imprison an entity (I'm guessing that's the intent behind it as-is, but it should be made explicit)
*Banish it
*Destroy it (Either directly after extracting it, or after imprisoning it.)
*Purify it! (That should be most difficult for all but the weakest spirits. It could be by allowing to use Unburdening the Bestial Soul on the spirit once you win the initial rolloff or something like that)
This is an eighth level power. Shit should be getting serious here.

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karablak

5/25/2011 1:37:47 PM #

Also
The player spends a Willpower point if the subject is willing and the corrupting agent does not resist (a rare occurrence).
This fragment could use a mention about residual evil energies and other bad vibrations. Otherwise it's practically completely redundant.

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Possessed

5/25/2011 1:55:17 PM #

As mentioned by others the level 1 power is sadly underpowered and the whole discipline should have been based on the DA:Vampires version of Valeren.
Also the 7 thing is extremely limiting so treating it as a rumor can only be good for the game since then different groups can decide for themselves whether or not it's true.
The Flaw is traditional for the Salubri in being both crippling and seemingly psychological. If this were a new game I might have some complaints about it but it's just something I'm used to seeing associated with the three eyes, so mission accomplished there I guess.
The third eye and it's appearance should be more clearly mentioned, either at the splats Appearance section, if it's tied to the Clan specifically, or in the Obeah's description, if it's tied to the discipline instead of the Clan.

As a final point I'm rather interested in seeing is my post once again the death blow to the conversation as it has been at every other splat I've commented on.

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Marcos del Cantaro

5/25/2011 1:58:59 PM #

Agreed with Francisco. My worries are, is Salubris the only descendants of Saulott? Is Baali really his descendant? How this could be integrated into the plot more often, since the disciplines are not the only thing I worry about. I think there should be more dept on how this wonderfull clan continues to develop. I also agreed that the 7 could only be (and should be) a propaganda from the Tremere to manipulate their heirs into both deem them as irrelevant and second to kill them on site!  I worry not about the disciplines as much as I worry about the purpouse of every clan. What does the Children of Saulot wants? How Saulot tricked the Tremere? That I would enjoy more to be developed than the Valeren/Obeah discussion! Remember, Saulot was the most favored by Caine. Isn't that important for the plot? Was Cain behind the "diablerie" of Saulot? only to help trick the Tremere? PLOT, PLOT... give us somethig to create more fantastic stories, not powers to fight or defend against other character using disciplines!  

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xsands

5/25/2011 4:55:01 PM #

I've never seen the whole "there are only 7 and they diablerizing their sires was" ever explained in a way that made sense to me except as In Character Tremere propaganda.  The expanded depth given to them in Dark Ages pretty much sealed that, but the modern versions (Revised, this) keep presenting that information to solidly as Setting Fact to player or ST looking to make a PC/NPC.  It either needs to be clear that it's propaganda or it needs a better explanation.

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gehennaheretic

5/25/2011 6:31:03 PM #

"Vanishingly rare = You Can't Have One!"  = bad. And 7 vampires is vanishingly rare. It is, in fact, just seven weird vampires to be lumped in with Caitiff, not even enough to be a bloodline.

And yeah, Obeah should be more powerful. Clearly it isn't thematic for it to be a combat power, but it should be better than using Medicine.  

Hmm. What if a Salubri used Unburden on someone, then got Soul Stolen by a Giovanni? Would he steal both souls, or just the Salubri's leaving the first guy's soul in the Salubri's body?

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Neall

5/25/2011 6:45:57 PM #

It's not merely the first few levels of Obeah; the 9th-level power effectively duplicated a low-level Auspex power, except it's a permanent death and can only be used if you're in Golconda.

I mean, 9th-level Disciplines don't really come up in play often, but, uh. Something like the Vampire: the Dark Ages power from the clanbook (Heaven's Gate, which allows you to resurrect someone within a few minutes of their death) seems far more appropos and is sufficiently plot-device to allow for good stories. Obeah 9, Unburden the Flesh-Clad Soul, really does not allow for any plots.

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Cogitare

5/26/2011 8:27:17 AM #

Some comments on Obeah (Valeren should really be discussed when we get to the antitribu).

I will only comment upon 1-5 here.
They feel fairly coherent and thematic (some of the thematic stuff get a bit dodgy when looking at 6-9 IMO but that's stuff for another post).  Some sort of general blurb on when the third eye opens is in order, say for every level 2 and up power? I will go through them in order.

Sense Vitality
As written this is more of a information gathering power than anything else. Very CSIish

I would scrap the Empathy for Medicine thing really. And instead add something along the lines of being able to diagnose a creature so well using this power you can increase the healing rate (only those who heal normally such as ghouls and mortals) to double the speed. This will affect successes lost health levels.

If this should have some sort of combat application perhaps by touching the target you can find weaknesses and a targeted strike could be even more deadly causing successes extra damage upon a hit.

Anesthetic Touch
I find this power to be extremely costly for rather little gain. 1 WP AND 1 BP is a hefty price to loose wound penalties for a few rounds.
It needs to be clarified if this can be used in combat to "one shot" a human into sleep and what penalties or dice rolls that should apply.
I would ditch the WP cost for extending the use of this power and only have it cost BP. The extra duration would be for the same amount of rounds as the original application. If this is something the player does not want he can re-activate it at full cost (ie. WP+BP)

Corpore Sano
Fairly straightforward power. It does make the level 1 power rather pointless and is in itself rather pointless if the level 6 power is reached. This is mainly a resource saver after an encounter in order to not having to spend lots of time and BP to heal AG wounds for Kindred. For mortals this is a bit different though.
I would like this to be a faster healing but NOT applicable to aggravated (this is purview of the level 6 power instead). The power cost 1 BP and a roll for Medicine + Wits (or some such) diff. 7-8 and for each success a Lethal is healed instantly. This makes it useful both during a fight and after a fight for resource reasons.

Mens Sana
This power feels thematic and functioning.

Unburdening the Bestial Soul
This is essentially an xp-shift and less xp-cost. You shift the xp cost from target to Salubri and reduce the cost of raising one Humanity to the cost of rebuying WP instead. I can see the thematic reasons behind this but the rules are very clunky and also a bit of xp-sink along with being unclear. How long does it take to restore 1 Humanity? I cannot find it.
I'd change this but try to keep the theme of the power (alleviate Humanity loss). The same restrictions apply as in the power as written and the same in game workings of drawing in the soul into the Salubri. But I would make it two-fold.
Reactive: One application (takes target Humanity in nights) of this power will allow for the target to rebuy Humanity (or equivalent) at x1 cost (instead of x2). But if Humanity is lost or Conscience roll is made before this is accomplished the effect vanishes.
Preventive: One application (takes target Humanity in nights) of this power will bolster the Conscience (or equivalent) by the Salubri's Empathy score.
This power would cost 1 WP and 1 BP to activate and the cost to raise each night is increased by each soul contained by the Salubri.

If I was going for more radical changes I'd make a general healing power which would cover both the current level 1 and 3 power and add some protective power which could be extened to protect someone important to the Salubri. Say gain armor or boost soak dice which could be given to a target or some such.

Cog.

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Francsico

5/26/2011 1:19:58 PM #

"add some protective power which could be extened to protect someone important to the Salubri. Say gain armor or boost soak dice which could be given to a target or some such."

That sounds nice. I will heal you and protect you.

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Neall

5/26/2011 5:42:21 PM #

The biggest problem with Unburdening the Bestial Soul was changed in the Dark Ages variant - the modern form can only be used against a willing target.

Why would anyone ever be willing to undergo this? If you've let your Humanity fall this far, you generally don't care. You can use it to bump someone from Humanity 8 to 9 or 10, sure. They'd be willing.

But the monstrous vampire you want to make feel guilty for the first time in three centuries? He does not give a fuck. That's when the Salubri does it anyways, and they fight against it. The power needs to work against unwilling targets with an opposed Willpower roll.

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Mister

5/26/2011 7:07:53 PM #

This.

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Путаны Москвы

8/16/2011 8:01:05 PM #

Just got in Matt's final drafts, and I'm working on developing them.  I'd like your take on this one, including the Discipline.
 
The Salubri were once a true clan.

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8/31/2011 8:02:27 AM #

This is definitely a blog worth following.  Youve got a great deal to say about this subject, and so much knowledge.  I think that you know how to make people listen to what you have to say, especially with an issue thats so important.  Im glad to know this blog.  Two big thumbs up, man!

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Seo

8/31/2011 7:24:14 PM #

This is definitely a topic thats close to me so Im happy that you wrote about it.  Im also happy that you did the subject some justice.  Not only do you know a great deal about it, you know how to present in a way that people will want to read more.  Im so happy to know someone like you exists on the web.

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9/2/2011 2:17:19 PM #

You sure do know what youre talking about.  Man, this blog is just great!  I cant wait to read more of what youve got to say.  Im really happy that I came across this when I did because I was really starting to get bored with the whole blogging scene.  Youve turned me around, man!

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9/2/2011 2:19:25 PM #

What I dont understand is how youre not even more popular than you are now.  Youre just so intelligent.  You know so much about this subject, made me think about it from so many different angles.  Its like people arent interested unless it has something to do with Lady Gaga!  Your stuffs great.  Keep it up!

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Iraqi Dinar

9/2/2011 7:51:07 PM #

What I wouldnt give to learn how you got your design to be so amazing!  I mean it.  Besides the blog just being awesome, this page is too sweet!  Its not too flashy.  It doesnt do too much with colours and things and the videos you use are perfect for this topic!  Really, awesome blog.

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Iraqi Dinar

9/2/2011 7:52:51 PM #

Can I just say what a relief to find someone who actually knows what theyre talking about on the internet.  You definitely know how to bring an issue to light and make it important.  More people need to read this and understand this side of the story.  I cant believe youre not more popular because you definitely have the gift.

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9/4/2011 10:18:11 AM #

I must say, youve got one of the best blogs Ive seen in a long time.  What I wouldnt give to be able to create a blog thats as interesting as this.  I guess Ill just have to keep reading yours and hope that one day I can write on a subject with as much knowledge as youve got on this one!

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9/4/2011 9:43:03 PM #

If I might --perhaps you should consider adding a few images.  I dont mean to disrespect what youve said; its very enlightening, indeed.  However, I think would respond to it more positively if they could be something tangible to your ideas.  Keep it up, but put a little more into it next time.

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9/8/2011 7:27:46 AM #

I must say, youve got one of the best blogs Ive seen in a long time.  What I wouldnt give to be able to create a blog thats as interesting as this.  I guess Ill just have to keep reading yours and hope that one day I can write on a subject with as much knowledge as youve got on this one!

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9/8/2011 3:13:59 PM #

Im not going to say what everyone else has already said, but I do want to comment on your knowledge of the topic.  Youre truly well-informed.  I cant believe how much of this I just wasnt aware of.  Thank you for bringing more information to this topic for me.  Im truly grateful and really impressed.

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9/8/2011 7:45:11 PM #

Dude, please tell me that youre going to write more.  I notice you havent written another blog for a while (Im just catching up myself).  Your blog is just too important to be missed.  Youve got so much to say, such knowledge about this subject it would be a shame to see this blog disappear.  The internet needs you, man!

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9/11/2011 4:21:30 PM #

One of the more impressive blogs Ive seen.  Thanks so much for keeping the internet classy for a change.  Youve got style, class, bravado.  I mean it.  Please keep it up because without the internet is definitely lacking in intelligence.

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9/13/2011 8:07:34 PM #

The next time I read a blog, I hope that it doesnt disappoint me as much as this one.  I mean, I know it was my choice to read, but I actually thought youd have something interesting to say.  All I hear is a bunch of whining about something that you could fix if you werent too busy looking for attention.

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9/15/2011 11:36:52 AM #

Ive been meaning to read this and just never got a chance.  Its an issue that Im very interested in, I just started reading and Im glad I did.  Youre a great blogger, one of the best that Ive seen.  This blog definitely has some information on topic that I just wasnt aware of.  Thanks for bringing this stuff to light.

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9/15/2011 3:28:31 PM #

How did you get to be this good?  Its amazing to see someone put so much passion into a subject.  Im glad I came across this.  Im glad I took the time to read on past the first paragraph.  Youve got so much to say, so much to offer.  I hope people realise this and look into your page.

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9/18/2011 8:46:58 AM #

All I can say is keep it up.  This blog is so necessary in a time when everyone just wants to talk about how many people someones cheated on their wife with.  I mean, thanks for bringing intelligence back to the web, its been sorely missed.  Great stuff.  Please keep it coming!

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9/18/2011 8:48:31 AM #

I must say, youve got one of the best blogs Ive seen in a long time.  What I wouldnt give to be able to create a blog thats as interesting as this.  I guess Ill just have to keep reading yours and hope that one day I can write on a subject with as much knowledge as youve got on this one!

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Jocuri

1/26/2013 7:03:38 PM #

This is getting a bit more subjective, but I much prefer the Zune Marketplace. The interface is colorful, has more flair, and some cool features like 'Mixview' that let you quickly see related albums, songs, or other users related to what you're listening to. Clicking on one of those will center on that item, and another set of "neighbors" will come into view, allowing you to navigate around exploring by similar artists, songs, or users. Speaking of users, the Zune "Social" is also great fun, letting you find others with shared tastes and becoming friends with them. You then can listen to a playlist created based on an amalgamation of what all your friends are listening to, which is also enjoyable. Those concerned with privacy will be relieved to know you can prevent the public from seeing your personal listening habits if you so choose.

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Gregory Despain

2/22/2013 6:45:18 PM #

Apple now has Rhapsody as an app, which is a great start, but it is currently hampered by the inability to store locally on your iPod, and has a dismal 64kbps bit rate. If this changes, then it will somewhat negate this advantage for the Zune, but the 10 songs per month will still be a big plus in Zune Pass' favor.

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Luigi Fulk

2/22/2013 8:40:07 PM #

I'll gear this review to 2 types of people: current Zune owners who are considering an upgrade, and people trying to decide between a Zune and an iPod. (There are other players worth considering out there, like the Sony Walkman X, but I hope this gives you enough info to make an informed decision of the Zune vs players other than the iPod line as well.)

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Andrew Pelt

2/22/2013 8:51:53 PM #

The Zune concentrates on being a Portable Media Player. Not a web browser. Not a game machine. Maybe in the future it'll do even better in those areas, but for now it's a fantastic way to organize and listen to your music and videos, and is without peer in that regard. The iPod's strengths are its web browsing and apps. If those sound more compelling, perhaps it is your best choice.

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